Roms: illegal, or no?

[Leon 55]

Okay, since the dawn of emulators, roms have been around. Question is, is it illegal to own the rom of a game, if you own the game?

 

I mean, from a moral standpoint, it is wrong, because you didn't buy it. However, from the legal point of view, when you purchase something such as music, movies, games, etc. it states specifically, you are buying a LICENSE to the product, but not the actual product.

 

Okay, shoot!

[Kiriashi 117]

Look man.

 

I said downloading roms is illegal. If you have the game yourself, you can back it up yourself.

 

 

You just had to go and make a bid deal about. :<

[Leon 55]

Look man.

 

I said downloading roms is illegal. If you have the game yourself, you can back it up yourself.

 

 

You just had to go and make a bid deal about. :<

 

No, i am making an honest debate. How can downloading something you own the license to be illegal? That is my question. I mean, I own the license to around 50 NES games, but not the know-how to put them on the computer. So why can I not download them?

[Kiriashi 117]

No, i am making an honest debate. How can downloading something you own the license to be illegal? That is my question. I mean, I own the license to around 50 NES games, but not the know-how to put them on the computer. So why can I not download them?

 

 

Because the way in which you download the game not created in a legal way.

[Leon 55]

Because the way in which you download the game not created in a legal way.

 

I must beg to differ, all the creators of roms do is back up their games, and then for anyone who has the game, give a link to the d/l; with a disclaimer saying not to keep it if you don't own it, because THAT is illegal.

[Chief 30]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROM_image#Legal_status

 

Its not illegal to download them, as long as you own the original game. It doesnt matter how it was produced, you own the rights to own it, as long as you don't distribute it.

[evil cabbage 9]

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but....

Downloading any commercial rom is illegal, regardless of whether you own the game or not, although nintendo is not going to come knocking on your door if you do download roms. Rom dumpers used to dump the original games have been officially made illegal by a court case sometime in the past (I can't remember when it was exactly) and it also ruled that rom images created by the dumpers were also illegal. Therefore, because these roms would have been dumped with such devices, any commercial rom you find on the internet IS illegal. The only legal roms are homebrew roms.

 

Also, Nintendo recently filed a patent for emulators that emulate their consoles and it has been officially "ok-d". So in other words, that pretty much makes any manufacturer of a non-authorized Nintendo emulator liable for infringement charges.

 

Even though all that sounds very nasty, Nintendo does not go after people who download roms, they mainly target commercial sites that are selling them.

 

 

 

[evil cabbage 9]

http://en.wikipedia....ge#Legal_status

 

Its not illegal to download them, as long as you own the original game. It doesnt matter how it was produced, you own the rights to own it, as long as you don't distribute it.

 

That article refers to roms as a generalization (i.e old consoles where the companies have gone bankrupt). I would also like to quote this, from the article

"However, in the U.S. it has been illegal since 1983 for a user to create their own backups of video game ROMs onto other cartridges"

[madanchi 18]

its not illegal if you own the original game, everyone knows that. It doesnt matter how you download it, via bit torrent or website etc its only illetgal if you intend to sell it or upload it. but even uploading people use the excuse that they're only sharing to people so they can play it (liek you may do lending a game with friends)

[Zeriab 9]

There are jurisdictions where it is legal to create a rom for backup purposes but where it is illegal to download a rom regardless of normal ownership.

Where you can create a rom for backup purposes or not is about consumer protection.

 

There seems to be an almost unanimous opinion among most countries that uploading roms is illegal. (Uploaders naturally try to legitimize it)

I guess that download roms should be illegal stems from that uploading roms should be illegal.

 

Personally I consider it a bit of a loophole due to laws not following evolution of technology.

[evil cabbage 9]

its not illegal if you own the original game, everyone knows that. It doesnt matter how you download it, via bit torrent or website etc its only illetgal if you intend to sell it or upload it. but even uploading people use the excuse that they're only sharing to people so they can play it (liek you may do lending a game with friends)

Although you will never be caught, it IS illegal whether you own the game or not.

 

To illustrate why, imagine you go into your local DVD store to buy a DVD. Now, obviously, if you purchase a DVD from the store, it does not make it legal for you to shoplift another copy of the same DVD for "backup purposes".

 

But, in any case, like I have said before, just like every other kind of piracy, it is certainly illegal, but very few people have not done it and your chances of Nintendo giving a stuff is about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

 

 

Edited September 18, 2010 by evil cabbage

[Broken Messiah 20]

Either way its a slippery slope no matter what. A guy got busted in Japan awile ago for hosting ds roms and was sued by Nintendo 

[Chief 30]

Evil cabbage, your example is bad. Shoplifitng hurts the store youre stealing it from, as they paid for that inventory. Backing up a dvd, in case of scratches, etc, is not wrong, as long as you don;t share. I woul'd have to agree that its a loophole, as the Law hasnt evolved as fast as technology, but I'm sure someone will fix it soon enough.

[Leon 55]

This is why this particular debate is fun. On one hand, the company whom sells the copy says you are buying a license to the product, but you cannot multiply it, or get a soft-copy of the product for a back-up. hardly makes any sense. Don't get me wrong, I abhor piracy, but it is no different than backing up your cd, and allowing others who have the cd to obtain a soft-copy as well.

 

It is up to the downloader, in my opinion, as to their honesty if they actually own the game. However, if uploading is the illegal side, that doesn't make the downloading automatically illegal. It just means the downloader must find someone, like on the black market, selling the product. It's sort of like being given a back-door gun and having it registered. You legally own it, but the seller illegally gave it to you.

[Chief 30]

I, on the other hand, dont abhor piracy. Adobe, for instance, charges way way too much for anything, so I think that piracy is a great way for poorer designers to get their foot in the door,a s long as they purchase a license later in their lifes. I had a friend from AUS that was an amazing designer, and never bought a license till about 5 years later, when he could afford it from selling his work and supporting himself.

 

Anyways, I have something for you guys. So, When I was young, we got a playstation, and the game Rayman, which is my favorite game in the world. Years on and on, the playstation is long gone, rayman is lost, but we had still purchased it, but now its unplayable. I get on my laptop and download the ROM for Rayman, something that was purchased before. I play it on my own, and share with no one. how is this illegal?

[Leon 55]

 

 

Anyways, I have something for you guys. So, When I was young, we got a playstation, and the game Rayman, which is my favorite game in the world. Years on and on, the playstation is long gone, rayman is lost, but we had still purchased it, but now its unplayable. I get on my laptop and download the ROM for Rayman, something that was purchased before. I play it on my own, and share with no one. how is this illegal?

 

I can top that story. I have a copy of Brigandine that my brothers, who are idiots, left on a shelf one day (disk only, mind you) and scooted it across there, effectively destroying the game. Are you telling me I cannot d/l the rom for my own personal use, when I, in fact, still actually OWN the game? Before you say 'repair' it, it is beyond repair... some of the data-foil on the label side is missing due to the 'scooting of the disk'.

[Noob Saibot 38]

No matter how you sugar coat it, it is still illegal.

 

The reality of it is even if (for example) Adobe knew about the $1,000 of pirated software on my desk top at most if they did do anything, they probably would take me to court to pay for the items or remove them from the computer. That is all they could do to the DOWNLOADER if they even tried to pursue it which in this real world is not likely to happen.

[Leon 55]

No matter how you sugar coat it, it is still illegal.

 

The reality of it is even if (for example) Adobe knew about the $1,000 of pirated software on my desk top at most if they did do anything, they probably would take me to court to pay for the items or remove them from the computer. That is all they could do to the DOWNLOADER if they even tried to pursue it which in this real world is not likely to happen.

 

Well, illegal or no; loophole or not; it seems as though Kage makes a good point. It would cost more for the companies to seek out the d/lers (because it is a lot more difficult) and bring them to court, rather than ignore it. Of course, going after the uploaders would be a lot easier, and is infringement, rather than possession of 'stolen property'.

[Noob Saibot 38]

Well, illegal or no; loophole or not; it seems as though Kage makes a good point. It would cost more for the companies to seek out the d/lers (because it is a lot more difficult) and bring them to court, rather than ignore it. Of course, going after the up-loaders would be a lot easier, and is infringement, rather than possession of 'stolen property'.

 

Well this is true for any company big or small. Like say I had a copy of a RMXP game someone made and was selling. This same concept applies they can't sue me for millions of dollars. Only for the price of the item or in this case (downloading) have it removed from the computer.

 

Because reality says to these companies, "even if I sue them they more than likely would remove it then be stupider and pay court fees to prove why they think it is not illegal for them to have.

 

But not everyone looks at Piracy as bad. For example about a year ago I was chatting with the Owner of IPB who said Pirated versions of IPB doesn't bother him because he see's it as free advertising.

[Leon 55]

Lol. reminds me of the hacks for the PSP. Few know this, but DarkAlex was actually ENDORSED by Sony, and was given PSPs to hack. This was before the PSN. Companies actually see these thigns as a plus, because they learn about security, and what people like. (ie. Downloadable games onto the systems [wii, ps3, psp, dsi, 360] and how to better secure their technology).

 

But that is besides the point...

 

Back on track:

 

Whether wrong or not; roms have given us much. the Nintendo shop channel, the playstation network, the 360's shop. But still, the debate is whether or not owning a rom is, or should be, illegal.

[Kiriashi 117]

I, on the other hand, dont abhor piracy. Adobe, for instance, charges way way too much for anything, so I think that piracy is a great way for poorer designers to get their foot in the door,a s long as they purchase a license later in their lifes. I had a friend from AUS that was an amazing designer, and never bought a license till about 5 years later, when he could afford it from selling his work and supporting himself.

 

Anyways, I have something for you guys. So, When I was young, we got a playstation, and the game Rayman, which is my favorite game in the world. Years on and on, the playstation is long gone, rayman is lost, but we had still purchased it, but now its unplayable. I get on my laptop and download the ROM for Rayman, something that was purchased before. I play it on my own, and share with no one. how is this illegal?

 

 

: O You seriously think that's okay?

 

And as for the rayman thing, did you still have the CD? 'Cause if you did, you could have made an iso from it and downloaded an emulator. If you didn't have the CD, then you don't own it. Even if you bought it, you need to have it to own it.

[Chief 30]

I know how companies like Adobe find out that you have their software, and its easy to prevent,a nd even if they do find out, theres plenty of ways around it... not to be a pirate or anything (argh), but if anyone here gets in the doodoo, lemme know before you do anything, click on anything, agree on anything, and I'll help you out. I dont find piracy as a big deal, like I said in my sotry above, it can help get someone off the ground... but pirating some things like moves and video games is indeed wrong... (not including ROMs).

[Broken Messiah 20]

Thats what I consider it, FREE advertising lol :clap:

[Joey 9]

My way of putting it, yes its illegal...but then again (well, unless you decide to go blurt it out at whatever game company like Nintendo) nothing's really gonna happen if you do download them. I've had EarthBound on my computer for like, many years...so, yeah, lol.

[Marked 197]

In terms of the law not evolving with technology, if what evil cabbage said was accurate:

Rom dumpers used to dump the original games have been officially made illegal by a court case sometime in the past (I can't remember when it was exactly) and it also ruled that rom images created by the dumpers were also illegal.

When a court decides on something, it becomes the law. Because once another case comes around that is similar, the courts are going to use that past case to come to their decision. So this is the law, until a higher court (or the same court assuming it has the power to overrule its own decisions) overrules this decision. But I don't know much about the US legal system so this is probably inaccurate..

[evil cabbage 9]

Thanks for backing me up on that.

 

But, just like the other people have said - there is no chance of you getting caught if you download roms - especially if you are using a direct http:// download site (that dos not use filehosting services). Lol, the only way they could catch you then is if your ISP decided to go through all the logs of your internet history for no reason, which - let's face it - they won't do unless they are contacted by a big nasty company like Nintendo.

 

As far as ROMS and ISOs go, you guys are luck that it is black and white in the US. As far as I know, in Australia, there is no black and white line for anything that is considered "grey", it is just illegal. As far as I know (I may be wrong) it's actually illegal to make ISOs of proprietary software (basically any DVD), simply because the licence you obtain does not give you the right to a second copy.

[Broken Messiah 20]

What about translating a rom? I was helping with translating Code Geass for the ds at a time.

[Leon 55]

Thanks for backing me up on that.

 

the only way they could catch you then is if your ISP decided to go through all the logs of your internet history for no reason, which - let's face it - they won't do unless they are contacted by a big nasty company like Nintendo.

 

 

Even if contacted by Nintendo. the ISP's server is covered by a contract, and logs and the like are actually protected information. the ONLY way to get them is with a sepena(don't know how to spell it). Even then, without concrete proof, they cannot go on a phishing expedition for the information. So, the only way is to catch an uploader, and get THEIR logs, but even then, with IP addresses leading to the ISPs, they cannot access the logs without knowing specifically who.

[Jesse66126 4]

I wonder if it's illegal to have English-translated Japanese only games. For example,most Fire Emblem games are Japanese only and will never be translating into English officially.

[evil cabbage 9]

I wonder if it's illegal to have English-translated Japanese only games. For example,most Fire Emblem games are Japanese only and will never be translating into English officially.

 

As I understand it, if you downloaded the game illegally, the fact that it is in another language makes no difference. However, owning a legitimate copy which installs and is not a rom and then patching it with something is rather grey. It would certainly violate the EULA, but licence agreements are not always judicially valid (depending on where you live), so in that situation I believe it is a "grey matter".