Sony vs. hackers

[Leon 55]

Okay, from my understanding, here's the short version: Geohotz jailbroke the ps3, thus allowing users to be able to use it in any way; claiming it was to reinstill the Linux use. Because of this, Sony banned any ps3 with his edits, AND brought a lawsuit against him.

 

However, Sony removed linux for 'Security issues' and to ensure the ps3 isn't used 'improperly'. In other words, to stop hacking online, piracy, and cheating. Because of this, a group named 'Anonymous' decided to hack the PSN, Sony site, and Playstation website.

 

Now, my question is, who is right in this debate?

 

PS3 side: The system, you do own, but by violating the Terms of Use agreement, you are subject to prosecution. Because this encourages many to pirate games, and cheat; especially online, which ruins it for everyone else.

 

Hackers' side: You own the system, and the technology should belong to the PEOPLE. Not the Corporation, and we should do whatever we want with it.

 

Back before the PS2 and Xbox were hacked to play pirated games, games were cheaper by $10-$20. That is significant. When the PS2 first game out, games were only $35. By the end of it, $50. That comes from more than just inflation.

 

 

 

Personally, I must side with Sony. They (and every other user) did agree with a ToU Agreement. Geohotz violated it, and in doing so, it opened up a window for cheating and piracy. By pirating games, everyone who actually purchases a valid license will end up paying either with the overall cost of the game; or with lack of service due to job-losses.

[kellessdee 48]

I think there is a lot of gray area in this situation. Well for me anyways. Because I do agree with that we should be able to do what we want with the systems we paid good money for, but I think as long as it is within a certain bounds. If we have a system, and we want to put a different OS, or modify certain aspects of it, I think we should be allowed to do so. However, in terms of stealing games, cheating online, etc. I think that Sony is definitely in the right. Because, after all (beyond legality, etc.) that is intellectual property theft. Which is wrong. So I don't really know which side I sit on. I don't think Geohotz should have been subject to any lawsuit, etc. I think what Sony should have done was just make him remove his "hacks" from the internet or something (cease and desist) But in the end if I paid 300-500$ (I dunno what the price is, I only have a wii) for a system and wanted to put linux on it so I can use it like a PC almost, then I would. I probably wouldn't pirate any games, and sure as hell wouldn't cheat online/offline. I never understood the point of cheating in games; it kinda defeats the purpose of a game if you automatically win. Why bother?

 

And besides what if you want to try develop software, or something for your system? I'm sure you would have to do SOME kind of modification to your system...especially since dev kits are so hard to come by.

 

But as a side note: whether it was right or wrong, I do find it HILARIOUS that buddy gets sued and then some group hacks the psn, sony website AND playstation website. That's what I call a hardcore vendetta right there. Epic.

[Dragon324 16]

I think I'm going to side with sony myself. For one I dont like hackers or moders because it does ruin the fun for other players. The way I see it if you cant play fair why even play at all.

 

Even though we do end up paying good money for their systems there is that user agreement that comes with it that applies to everyone. Now if you build your own system then you can do what you wish but imo if you didn't make it you have no right to tweak it. Its like a book just because you buy it doesn't mean you can break the copyright laws and that applies to movies and games as well.

[Broken Messiah 20]

I am going with hackers on this, I feel like if I bought it, I can do whatever I want with it. As for pirated games, well that is immoral and illegal. I see a compromise of Sony coming out with a homebrew section on the psn, just not iso loading or anything.

[kellessdee 48]

I think I'm going to side with sony myself. For one I dont like hackers or moders because it does ruin the fun for other players. The way I see it if you cant play fair why even play at all.

 

Even though we do end up paying good money for their systems there is that user agreement that comes with it that applies to everyone. Now if you build your own system then you can do what you wish but imo if you didn't make it you have no right to tweak it. Its like a book just because you buy it doesn't mean you can break the copyright laws and that applies to movies and games as well.

 

While this is true, I look at it like this: A game system is essentially a pc (especially nowadays) with its own OS, default software, etc. So why should it be treated any different? Their isn't any restriction with changing our pc's default OS or software and are free to modify it how we like. And of course, piracy, etc is still illegal and follows those rules...so why can't we change our Wii or Xbox 360 or Ps3's OS? Sure, it makes it easier to pirate/cheat, but that's user-specific. Not everyone is going to do that, some people just want to run perhaps linux so their ps3 can double as a pc, homebrew games/software...as long as it's within copyright laws (if you aren't cheating, stealing files, etc) why shouldn't be allowed? Although I do agree with 100% that hackers ruin the fun for other players (in terms of cheating online) and that it is ridiculous, like aim bots for online shooters...but should those people that are using everything illegally ruin it for the regular person who just wants tinker around with their electronics? I dunno but that's how I feel. I mean, I can not say if said hacker breached the exact terms/conditions or copyright laws (which I am assuming somehow he did) so I guess in the end really it WAS fair game for Sony to pull a lawsuit (as long as he did break some kind of legal condition)

 

But more importantly, has anyone wondered why the nintendo Wii linux project (which has its own website, dedicated to how to get linux on yr Wii) or any Xbox 360 linux projects haven't been shut down or sued? Something tells me Sony needs the money more than Nintendo and Microsoft do......Or when "large" remakes of certain popular video games (Chrono Trigger 3d anyone?) simply get a cease and desist letter. Sure square probably would've brought the hammer down if they continued, but they could've just as easily sued from the start. and didn't. I guess it's like comparing apples and oranges, but just some food for thought.

[Leon 55]

To be fair, the microsoft bans, and sometimes even sometimes bricks modded systems that log into live. Honestly, though, I can see wanting nobody modding a system, nor wanting that info released, simply because 3/5 people admit to piracy in an anonymous poll. Its like Jurassic park. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

Its like modding your Honda civic. You can change the paint, tires and look, but when its no longer street legal, it must be stopped. You can change your system's themes, setup and all, but when you use it for illegal acts, it should be stopped. This is why the terms of use are present.

 

In fact, it is why Sony pulled the Linux use to begin with, people were using and creating emulators and roms on the ps3, and Sony wanted it stopped.

[kellessdee 48]

Well, you are completely right. I don't really blame them at all, I mean they are companies (regardless of how large) and obviously want to make money off of their systems/games (otherwise they wouldn't make them) so it only makes that they try to cut all copyright infringement/piracy at the source. And just like you said, that is exactly why they set the terms & conditions to begin with.

 

I still think we should be allowed to do what we want with our systems; but at the same time I can't blame the companies for trying to stop it. That's why I can't really vote on this one, too much gray area for me. I can see why each side did what they did.

 

(in my case, i probably would not pirate games for any of these systems...only because I have generally lost faith in newer console games. I think if I find a game actually worth playing on a console, then it's worth buying. I will admit I emulate Snes games on my pc(which at it's core obviously isn't much better really), although in my defense (if I have any) it's not my fault there are a lot of games that never saw a north american release and never will, and that some games are just that much more enjoyable with a fan translation...goddamn you censorship!)

[Broken Messiah 20]

I think that hackers shouldnt be allowed to play online multiplayer games unless the game specifically says its hacked,

[Polraudio 122]

I think that hackers shouldnt be allowed to play online multiplayer games unless the game specifically says its hacked,

I see no problem with it unless your doing something illegal like downloading illegal games and playing it online.

[Bob423 52]

my thoughts exactly

[Dragon324 16]

While this is true, I look at it like this: A game system is essentially a pc (especially nowadays) with its own OS, default software, etc. So why should it be treated any different? Their isn't any restriction with changing our pc's default OS or software and are free to modify it how we like. And of course, piracy, etc is still illegal and follows those rules...so why can't we change our Wii or Xbox 360 or Ps3's OS? Sure, it makes it easier to pirate/cheat, but that's user-specific. Not everyone is going to do that, some people just want to run perhaps linux so their ps3 can double as a pc, homebrew games/software...as long as it's within copyright laws (if you aren't cheating, stealing files, etc) why shouldn't be allowed? Although I do agree with 100% that hackers ruin the fun for other players (in terms of cheating online) and that it is ridiculous, like aim bots for online shooters...but should those people that are using everything illegally ruin it for the regular person who just wants tinker around with their electronics? I dunno but that's how I feel. I mean, I can not say if said hacker breached the exact terms/conditions or copyright laws (which I am assuming somehow he did) so I guess in the end really it WAS fair game for Sony to pull a lawsuit (as long as he did break some kind of legal condition)

 

But more importantly, has anyone wondered why the nintendo Wii linux project (which has its own website, dedicated to how to get linux on yr Wii) or any Xbox 360 linux projects haven't been shut down or sued? Something tells me Sony needs the money more than Nintendo and Microsoft do......Or when "large" remakes of certain popular video games (Chrono Trigger 3d anyone?) simply get a cease and desist letter. Sure square probably would've brought the hammer down if they continued, but they could've just as easily sued from the start. and didn't. I guess it's like comparing apples and oranges, but just some food for thought.

I see you point and you backed up your opinion nicely. I know no matter what we say we wont change each others views so after this I'm not gonna post in this topic :P. But I just wanted to say I have no problem with people changing the OS to some degree its when they use it for illegitimate process. Therefore it is soly my opinion that no one should be allowed to do it until there is a way to fully prevent the people from doing all the illegal and unfair things.

[kellessdee 48]

It's just one of those things haha

 

But yea that's the problem, there isn't really a way to fully prevent the illegal/unfair things without stopping any modifications, so obviously from the company's point of view; they must stop it all.

 

And of course you are right this purely on a basis of opinion, which is what makes this topic great...And to me I think it's more that I would like to know that I CAN make OS/software mods if I want (because in all honesty, I don't think I would actually put the effort into bypassing firmware etc.. I read up on this PS3 crack, apparently it took the guy 3 YEARS (and something months) to finally crack the system. Ouch, I don't think I want the new OS THAT badly.)

[Leon 55]

I see no problem with it unless your doing something illegal like downloading illegal games and playing it online.

That's just the problem. The only way to ensure every game isn't pirated is to give each game a serial number just like PC games. That happens, and you cannot resell your games if you don't like them. Further, itd put thousands out of work at used game stores like Gamestop.

 

Then there is cheaters, for trophies and multiplayer play, that in itself would unbalance the whole setup, and discourage both online play and competitive trophy/achievement gain.

[Polraudio 122]

That's just the problem. The only way to ensure every game isn't pirated is to give each game a serial number just like PC games. That happens, and you cannot resell your games if you don't like them. Further, itd put thousands out of work at used game stores like Gamestop.

There could be a way around that. What if the product key was tied with the account? When you want to sell your game you untie the key from your account then its allowed to be tied to another account. Once they key is tied to an account it cannot be used on another account.

 

That would be one way to stop illegal games.

[Leon 55]

I wish it was that easy, pol, but you could still copy the game and give it out. Just 2 people with the same key cannot play at the same time. Further, people could theoretically create the equivalent of a keygen, which could rob people of the copy the acquire in a legit manner. They tried this method when Diablo 2 was released.

[zankokunoyami 0]

Personally, I am siding with sony on this one.

 

Now, I am not against all hacks, perse. I mean, if you are doing it for yourself, and only yourself; and not costing the company money, it's not really a bad thing. One idea I enjoyed about modding my PS2 is that I could make copies of my games and then only play the copies. I was completely against renting and copying. But I did always hate that when I used my games, no matter how careful I was, they always got tiny scratches from being inside of the console. So it was nice when I could copy them and leave the original's all in mint nice condition.

 

Now, when you are breaking the user agreenment, and promoting a hack that is really quite going to cost the company money... you lose any right. I am sure the modded PS2s cost them a pretty penny because of those who didn't care. That is why I was glad to see the PS3 not have any modded forms (even though I enjoyed it on the PS2, I also knew what others were using it for). Game companies are already struggling. You either start seeing lay offs... or sell outs. With Square already selling themselves to anyone and everyone like a two dollar whore; and other companies jumping on board of less console exclusives and more multi-plats... I am often reminded of WHY I want these companies to prosper. And why I want to support them. (Y'know, so they go back to the days of exclusives and not selling out. They are surprisingly struggling and can only think of making a quick buck rather than putting all their effort into a game like previous years)

 

There is good and bad to every aspect. But personally; I will never side with a hacker or those pussies Anonymous (really, they have to be an elite group of 2 year olds wearing diapers. They seriously need to get a life). You can bet they are half the people insuring I am paying an arm and a leg for virus softwear, to fix my computer; why I have to be weary of downloading ANYTHING online. They ruin our days, curropt our computers, cheat on games, and pretty much destroy most of the joys of going online. To side with them in any bout would be to say 'yeah... you guys should keep up your ruining of the internet! I ENJOY my computer getting chock full of virus'!'. They talk about rights, but then why are they attacking and taking down websites illegally? If you want to do something about it, do it the legal way. But wait... thats right... hacks are all about breaking the law. They assume the internet means FREE EVERYTHING. I'm sorry, but people still need to make money. You have to be reasonable and compromise.

 

Meh. But still, if the guy maybe created the mod only for himself, I don't think anyone would care. It is creating and sharing it that helps hurt these companies. Go ahead and do what the heck you want to your own console, just as long as you don't help others do the same thing. That is all I'm really trying to say.

Edited April 10, 2011 by zankokunoyami