An official English version of RM2k3 approaches~

[Liberty 1]

Petition for Signatures

Official Topic

 

This suggestion was thrown into the table and so we have to ask, if we were to release RPG Maker 2003 in English would you buy it?

Vote and post your suggestions here~

 

Just a note, take the EULA into consideration. This means you guys shouldn't use patches/plug-ins/external programs if you want to use RPG Maker.

 

 

Well, what can I say? There's a possibilty that Degica/EB! will look into creating an official English version of RM2K3 if there's enough demand for it. What do you all think? Should we embrace this momentous occasion that would allow us to use 2K3 legally? Would you pay for such a thing? Let your voices be heard!

 

And sign the damn petition! <3

 

Also, please spread the word around to any and all sites you frequent where people use the program. The more people made aware, the better!

 

(Wasn't sure where to put this, so I hope here's okay.)

 

Also, if you're wondering why you should bother...

 

Why wouldn't you? It helps EB! and Degica to be inspired to make more of an effort to listen to the fans.

You no longer have to live in shame knowing you've got a pirated copy.

You will legally own it.

It also makes a neat collection item for nostalgia's sake.

You can legally sell a 2k3 game.

You will gain legal usage of the RTP that came with it so that if you want to use it in other RM engines, you can.

You'll be supporting the people who support your hobby - it's almost like you'll be supporting your hobby yourself.

You will no longer be one of the dregs of society who pulls down the rest of your hobby-kin.

 

Are those enough reasons? Or would you like more?

 

 

This really is a big deal, though. How many other companies would take a fan's suggestion and run with it when it comes to an older program? Wanna be part of RM history? Vote yes~

 

 

Disclaimer: This was requested by a fan - namely me - to a staff member, so no hatin' on Degica. Got an issue, take it up with me and I'll show you my reasoning. Since some people are asshats. (Not necessarily anyone here, but there've been some people that are being a bit douchey about the idea.)

Edited April 26, 2012 by Liberty

[Jon Bon 43]

The only value I can see in this is the legal use of the RTP, which in theory they could just sell separately for a small fee. Now just because I don't see the value, doesn't mean there isn't any, and I would actually like to ask a few questions, to better determine whether this is in fact a good idea or not. I assume EB is enterbrain.

 

1. In your opinion, is RM2k3 better, or different enough from RMXP to necessitate it's release?

 

2. Do you think rm2k3 can make anything that RMXP or further generations of the engine can not achieve?

 

3. Would there not be logic behind them not planning to translate it originally, or do you think they just weren't sure about market viability?

 

If 1 and 2 are answered with yes, then yeah I would vote for an English release. But there has to be a reason to use this engine over others made by the same company, even if it's merely the lower cpu requirements.

[EmilyAnnCoons 7]

I'll have to agree with Jon on this one. Exactly what can RM2k3 do that RMXP can't? From what I can see, the only real bonus of RM2k3 is the fact that it's got a bigger following, so it's easier to find graphics for it. However, I think that's only due to the fact that 90% of video game graphics work in RM2k3 because a lot of old RPGs are side-view battle systems. Fact is, by using Minkoff's battle system, you can use any RM2k3 battle graphic in RMXP. So what real point is there in using RM2k3? RMXP barely even runs on Vista or Windows 7 unless you're using the legal copy, and I've never gotten RM2k3 to work on my Windows 7 computer. So right there, because I own a Windows 7 computer, there's no point in me using RM2k3.

 

The graphics for RMXP are better, the resolution is better, you can do much more then with RM2k3. I can make a character graphic whatever size I need. I don't have to make my huge final boss be a teeny tiny sprite on the overworld. RM2k3 can't do that, though. RMVX was basically RM2k but with RGSS2, and people have even recoded the RGSS2 so that you can use a side view battle system. So, the question becomes, why would you want RM2k3? What exactly does RM2k3 offer that neither RMXP or RMVX/Ace can offer? Aside from being simpler and easier to start with? I haven't found anything.

[forcebreaker 0]

....rm2k3 was my first rpg maker.....illegaly of course.....it would be nice to own it legit. But...its been said already...what can it do that XP or VXACE, can not? The only thing i can think of is the easier side veiw battal system (i may be wrong about it being easier, ive never tried to make one in the other systems, with scripts), but even that was a little annoying to me.

 

Anyway, just to have it in legal english, i think i would vote just the same.

 

 

Then again....for me it would also depend on how much it will cost. I wouldent pay over $25 for that, no matter what.

Edited April 27, 2012 by forcebreaker

[Bigace360 38]

Disclaimer: This was requested by a fan - namely me - to a staff member, so no hatin' on Degica. Got an issue, take it up with me and I'll show you my reasoning. Since some people are asshats. (Not necessarily anyone here, but there've been some people that are being a bit douchey about the idea.)

 

hm, I wander why, have you figured out why. I don't want to sound like an ass myself. But why would anyone waste there time with this prehistoric junk regardless of its fanbase when RMXP VX/VXAce is out uh? There is really no point when everything can be done better in the newer three systems.

 

 

Also, if you're wondering why you should bother...

 

Why wouldn't you? It helps EB! and Degica to be inspired to make more of an effort to listen to the fans.

You no longer have to live in shame knowing you've got a pirated copy.

You will legally own it.

It also makes a neat collection item for nostalgia's sake.

You can legally sell a 2k3 game.

You will gain legal usage of the RTP that came with it so that if you want to use it in other RM engines, you can.

You'll be supporting the people who support your hobby - it's almost like you'll be supporting your hobby yourself.

You will no longer be one of the dregs of society who pulls down the rest of your hobby-kin.

 

Are those enough reasons? Or would you like more?

1. Then use a newer system
   
2. Then buy a newer system
   
3. same as above
   
4. not really, espically if you don't care
   
5. You can legally sell a RMXP VX/VXAce game as well as long as you legally own them.
   
6. The newer RTP look better to me anyways.
   
7. I never supported RM2k3 or below in the first place.
   
8. ?????
   
9. I hope there's more as those won't convince me.
   

Edited April 27, 2012 by bigace

[Noob Saibot 38]

I don't see the point of debating this anyway. EB has been known for down grading their software and taking out features. 2003 has a couple features that need to be scripted in order to work in RMXP or VX/ACE. PLus seeing how finding a scripter willing and able to do the task is not as simple as people on RMXP forums make it sound.

 

Plus I see no reason in asking a dumb question like: why would anyone waste there time with this prehistoric junk regardless of its fanbase when RMXP VX/VXAce?

 

By nature VX also has prehistoric features and ACE is a paid update for VX so why buy it?

 

See...dumb question because even though I hate VX/ACE I know the reason why people bought ACE...or in my opinion wasted their money (but that's for a different discussion).

 

I mean heck if they not only released it, but added scripting to it I would buy it. XP and 2003 are my favorite out of the entire RPG Maker series (PC version).

 

Plus here is another question...Why buy VX when it can do everything XP can? Why buy ACE when VX and XP can do everything it can? Putting the updated scripting aside (which is the only real major difference) and they pretty much the same.

 

I think sitting here debatting who would buy it because it is old is stupid!

 

So by the logic of some people in this topic I'm stupid because I bought an NES (Nintendo) when I could get a Wii?

 

The Wii is better in power and processing so why get a an old NES?

 

That's how dumb I feel this discussion/debate it...

 

I'll sign it instead of asking pointless questions!

 

v/Respectfully,

Noob Saibot

[Jon Bon 43]

Wow, did you just compare the difference between two game systems to the difference between two game making engines? Game engines make games, consoles play them. An nes can be another option to a wii because they are different, an engine is used to make something and an upgraded version of it can be entirely better in every way, but it's not automatic there for discussion worthy.

 

We aren't comparing two different types of chairs(game consoles), but rather, the machine that makes the chair(game engine) in a loose sense. If the two chair making machines are different and one isn't superior to the other, then both are an option, as it can potentially be with some engine choices. On the other hand if one chair making machine(game engine) clearly makes better chairs in every aspect, why bother using the older model?

 

Comparing NES and Wii is like comparing a stool to a wingback chair, they both serve the purpose they were intended to. Comparing two game engines is like comparing two factory machines, one can clearly be better/more efficient, so it is worth discussion, and is less about preference which is what comparing two game consoles is about.

 

I am not going to throw away my signature and tell a company to work on something that isn't useful to anyone, nor did/do I plan to sign something before being properly informed, which is why I asked questions.

[Liberty 1]

1. In your opinion, is RM2k3 better, or different enough from RMXP to necessitate it's release?

Yes. It's quite different. For one, no scripting but easier eventing. Also, it's a more charming system, imo. The graphics are bright without being blocky and chibified, the battle system is default side view - unlike any of the other makers - and it's a great learning tool for beginners. The mapping system is one of the best, too. XP's is pretty awesome, but 2k3's is second place to that, which is awesome for an older program.

 

2. Do you think rm2k3 can make anything that RMXP or further generations of the engine can not achieve?

Of course. Look at all the games that have been crafted on the game! How many of those are better than the ones that are released now? How many of the new ones are considered classics? How many are like The Way, Hero's Realm, Three The Hard Way, Power Trip, A Blurred Line, Wilfred the Hero, Leo and Leah, A Home Far Away, Naufrager - to name a few. It's also the best maker for straight RPGs. Sure, XP is great for cross genres and platformers. There's a lot you can do with the scripting capabilities, but it doesn't have that old school charm. It's like FF12 vs FF6. Both great but one's a charming romp and the others more adventuresque.

 

3. Would there not be logic behind them not planning to translate it originally, or do you think they just weren't sure about market viability?

This question is asked a lot, in the vein of "Why now?". The answer, plain and simple is this : (I did my homework~)

The current publisher only came on board around the XP era of RM games. This is Degica. The publisher before that, Protexus, didn't bother with the English communities because they didn't see a need to. They didn't bother reaching out to we westerners. You saw it a lot with game publishers - keeping games in Japan. And don't be fooled, RM isn't software, it's a game-making game.

When Degica came on board they had XP up their sleeves and had to try and focus on getting it out to the English market. They didn't think about releasing the earlier ones in English because they had to try and promote the English product and make contacts within the western community. They had their hands full trying to coax a beaten community back into trusting them.

 

Why didn't they offer sooner? Easy. They had no idea that people wanted this product until someone actually asked for it. It's only taken this long before someone did. >.<;

 

 

That said, the question isn't "Is XP/VXA/VX better?, but "If there were an English 2k3, would you buy it?" You possibly wouldn't since you're hung up on XP, others would though, enjoying the charm of an easier to use system with more graphics at hand, a default side view system and a charming RTP. To some, that's what they want. Those are the people we're reaching out to.

 

...and those who would like to be legal in this.

 

Me, I want this. That's why I asked about it. And Degica said, "Sure, if there's a demand, we won't mind doing this. We'd make a bit back off our older programs that could be used to fuel the newer projects."

[Jon Bon 43]

I disagree with the graphics debate, since graphics can be added to any engine and rights sold separately. I do however get the ease of use as a selling point. Well you are definitely inforned, and to be honest, I am not hung up on XP, although I do know XP is capable o everything you listed and more, there is no reason one can't use xp to make a game as simple as rm2k3, much like playstation mini games, are nes quality but sold on the psn. I like how ya compared ff6 since that is the main influence and inpiration for my rmxp game.

 

With all that said, I think this would benefit people. Sort of a training wheels for game making. I am working on a production company and I can completely understand the need for an entry level game engine. I needed to check and make sure it was different though, and easier is different.

In any event this is what sold me.

 

"Sure, if there's a demand, we won't mind doing this. We'd make a bit back off our older programs that could be used to fuel the newer projects."

 

If there is a market for it, and will be a positive gain, then yeah, I agree, and have now signed the petition.

[kellessdee 48]

The Way, Hero's Realm, Three The Hard Way, Power Trip, A Blurred Line, Wilfred the Hero, Leo and Leah, A Home Far Away, Naufrager

 

I hate to distract from legitimate discussion/debate, but this * 1000. <3

 

I miss rm2k/3 :(

[Liberty 1]

Just a FAQ I whipped up for another site. I thought I'd share.

 

FAQ

Why now? Why not 10 years ago?

The simple answer? Because the community itself shot down any attempts EB tried at legalizing the product. After XP's release no one bothered asking for it.

The complete answer? Degica only took over the publishing of EB! products at the advent of XP. Up until that time Protexus was the publisher and they weren't really concerned with the English community. When Degica took over, they reached out to the Western community. It's thanks to them (and Agetec - the publishers of the console RMs who showed EB! that there was a market for RM product here) that we have any English makers at all. They also hadn't thought that it would be appreciated, so until a fan actually asked about it...

When they were asked they said, sure, let's see how much demand there is and if there's enough we'll do that.

 

 

Is it worth it for them to do this? Aren't they just wasting money that could be better spent on other things?

To quote Touchfuzzy, Admin of the official RM site:

I'm going to use variables because I have no idea exact costs. Let's say we have Project 1 and Project 2.

 

Project 1 costs x to produce, and brings in 10x

 

Project 2 costs 2x to produce, and brings in 10x

 

If we do just Project 1 we make 9x, if we do just Project 2 we make 8x. If we did BOTH projects, we could make 17x.

 

Hence why if something sounds like we will make x's we will find the money to do it. Also, translating 2k3 if it does work out, could make a good deal of money as it has low costs comparatively to bring over, that could be used to FUND other projects.

 

In other words, the money they make back on this can be used to make other projects, like more resources for the newer makers. How is it a waste of their time to hire a few translators to make an English version of a game that might net them some profit back from a product they missed out on thanks to a shoddy publisher?

 

Why should we pay for something we already have?

There are two main reasons and they both boil down to ethics.

The first is that it's illegal to use the engine. Okay, get the laughter out of your system. I'll wait.

 

Seriously though, supporting the system that has been loved and used so much over the years is a great thing. It makes you feel better, for one, and encourages Degica to listen to the fans about what they want, for two. Me, I like the idea of owning RM2K3. I like the thought that I've given back to the people who had such a large part of my youth. I remember the first time I even found out there was an RPG Maker and how awesome it was, thinking that I'd be able to make my own game, just like the ones I'd played in my childhood. I love the idea of giving something back for that.

 

Another reason is the RTP. Currently, unless you bought the Japanese version, using the RTP in any engine is illegal. Remember that RTP is sounds as well as graphics. The legal usage of a selection of music and sound effects... do I need to quote how much it costs to 'buy' music to use that flows and fits together? Hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. Seriously.

 

Owning the program. In English. Legally. This means, barring any rips or other illegal content, you may sell your game.

 

Xp/VX/VXA are better! Also, do 2k instead!

That's not a question, but I'll respond anyway. Yes, they're better in a lot of ways, but for those looking to push themselves when it comes to eventing, for those who are new to the programs, for those who like old school RPG charm? 2k3 is a better bet.

2k... well, as much as I love 2k, 2k3 offers something that NONE of the other makers have. A default side-view battle system. Also, better eventing.

 

How much will this cost? They should add extra stuff!

I put these two together because they relate. Firstly, they've said right out that the cost would be set at $20. Not too bad, eh? This is a program in English and the RTP for use in any other engine. Neato~

 

Adding extra stuff would just drive up the price and make things harder on their end. A translation, maybe a bug fix for the agility issue... That's what they're offering. They aren't going to recode a whole new engine, they aren't going to add scripting features or higher resolution or redo the graphical side of the RTp or add self switches (;. because doing so would take away from their other projects and drive up the price.

 

But what about patches and things like Cherry's support programs? Aren't they illegal?

Yes, of course they are. To make the patches they had to mess with the source code of the game and that is against the EULA. That said, it's like using rips. It's illegal, but as long as you're not trying to sell the game and waving big red flags, Degica isn't likely to be bothered prosecuting you for it. I mean, how many prosecutions have there been with the pirated version? Or even with VX games that use the Tile Swap patch? I can think of two, perhaps, and those were really popular and well-known outside of the community.

It's like editing rom files. The companies won't go out of their way to police it unless someone throws up a flare of some sort (That one Chrono Trigger fangame comes to mind.)

 

Is this official or are you just trying to gather support for a cause that has no chance of occurring?

This is official. If 1000 signatures are raised, Degica will do this. Why? Because a fan asked. How awesome is that?

 

Any other questions? Just ask.

 

 

 

Also, by Iddalai~

Edited May 1, 2012 by Liberty

[amerkevicius 0]

The only concern I'd have is this. Aside from bug fixes, which may or may not happen, what about those who choose not to buy a legal copy of this but still use their pirated versions? Will the communities begin enforcing piracy regulations and have these people banned? If so, then you risk losing a large chunk of your members who will scramble to go elsewhere? And if not, then how is it fair if somebody spends their $20 to make right with EB and Degica for a legal copy, and yet there is no reprimand for everybody else who continues to use a pirated version?

 

You can sell a game legally on this? Perhaps, but no more so than you can on other makers. Plus, if you opt to include the patches and plugs that were made available by third parties (DynRPG, for example), you break the EULA and can no longer legally sell a game using this editor.

 

You can legally own the RTP? If you are selling a game, great, except the resources are so out-dated and would clash with newer resources. But this all goes back to the community again. First, anybody who currently makes a game with RM2K or 2K3 is already illegally using the resources. Not to mention that these resources (at least the audio) is very commonly used in RMXP and VX/Ace already. While illegal, it's allowed as long as you don't sell the game. So again, will the community risk banning members who use these resources illegally (whether or not the game is commercial) and lose a chunk of their membership base, or will they continue to turn a blind eye to what's going on, which in itself would make selling a legal copy of RM2K3 worthless to the one guy who wants to do what is right?

 

If I'm not selling my game, why should I buy a legal copy if the community is okay with everybody else's pirated version?

 

My point in this is for it to really work, for this thing to really take off, the communities will have to be on board with the idea and enforce rules against requesting and using pirated copies of RM2K3. Only then will this drive the necessity for RM2K3 users to go out and purchase a legal copy.

 

But a large number of the communities probably won't enforce this because they fear they will lose a major portion of their membership chain, and a community needs its members to survive. Unfortunately, a large portion of the membership in several communities already have and use illegal copies of RM2K3, and won't be buying a legal copy.

 

And that's the other thing that worries me. Our communities have a pretty decent thing going on with Degica now, that I'd hate to ruin the relationship over a disagreement. The world has come to accept that communities allow use of RM2K3 resources and games, and EB has decided to no longer try to prosecute its use. But if the communities aren't willing to support a legal copy of this by enforcing piracy laws in fear of losing their members, how does that support Degica? Will this create an even greater mess for future products? Is Degica okay with continued use of pirated material when there is a legal copy that can be purchased?

Edited May 1, 2012 by amerkevicius

[kellessdee 48]

The only concern I'd have is this. Aside from bug fixes, which may or may not happen, what about those who choose not to buy a legal copy of this but still use their pirated versions? Will the communities begin enforcing piracy regulations and have these people banned? If so, then you risk losing a large chunk of your members who will scramble to go elsewhere? And if not, then how is it fair if somebody spends their $20 to make right with EB and Degica for a legal copy, and yet there is no reprimand for everybody else who continues to use a pirated version?

 

I don't ever remember any community who would ban someone for USING pirated/illegal software...as long as no one posts links or advertises such things, I don't see an issue. Also, who's to say the official english version wouldn't be pirated? In that case, how would one even begin to attempt to regulate who's using paid versions and who's using pirated versions?

 

EB/Degica/Whoever has a bad/good (depending on your viewpoint) track record of making it ridiculously easy to get free full versions (I mean, directly through the trial version, no cracks necessary)

 

And hasn't it really always been like this? Some people support the company and buy the legal version, then some people pirate the software, with no reprimand? This is the same for any software. By this logic, they should never release software ever again, because it's not fair that some people pay and others don't.

 

You can sell a game legally on this? Perhaps, but no more so than you can on other makers. Plus, if you opt to include the patches and plugs that were made available by third parties (DynRPG, for example), you break the EULA and can no longer legally sell a game using this editor.

 

Of course you could sell a game if you buy the legal software, you can with RMXP, RMVX and RMVXace and it HAS been done before.

 

You can legally own the RTP? If you are selling a game, great, except the resources are so out-dated and would clash with newer resources. But this all goes back to the community again. First, anybody who currently makes a game with RM2K or 2K3 is already illegally using the resources. Not to mention that these resources (at least the audio) is very commonly used in RMXP and VX/Ace already. While illegal, it's allowed as long as you don't sell the game. So again, will the community risk banning members who use these resources illegally (whether or not the game is commercial) and lose a chunk of their membership base, or will they continue to turn a blind eye to what's going on, which in itself would make selling a legal copy of RM2K3 worthless to the one guy who wants to do what is right?

 

Have communities EVER banned people for using "illegal" resources? I see SNES/NES/etc rips in RPG Maker games all the time -- that's illegal. I have yet to see anyone get banned over this. If it's ripped, you can't sell your game. If you own no rights, you can't sell the game. It's been this way for a long time...hasn't it? Also, I would REALLY like to question the person who is SELLING a game, without getting a proper artist and/or using RTP. I would NEVER pay for a game that isn't 100% original content. Why would I pay for a game full of RTP when I can get a million and one free games full of RTP?

 

Maybe that's just my opinion, but if anyone wants to make money, they should seriously consider getting a proper team.

 

If I'm not selling my game, why should I buy a legal copy if the community is okay with everybody else's pirated version?

 

I dunno, why should you ever buy a legal copy of something if no one would ever know you are pirating it? It's for the license and the support. You CAN sell your games (if you want).

 

My point in this is for it to really work, for this thing to really take off, the communities will have to be on board with the idea and enforce rules against requesting and using pirated copies of RM2K3. Only then will this drive the necessity for RM2K3 users to go out and purchase a legal copy.

 

But a large number of the communities probably won't enforce this because they fear they will lose a major portion of their membership chain, and a community needs its members to survive. Unfortunately, a large portion of the membership in several communities already have and use illegal copies of RM2K3, and won't be buying a legal copy.

 

You THINK they won't be buying a legal copy. But why wouldn't they? People still buy RMXP, RMVX, RMVXace and it's the easiest software (that I've encountered) to pirate. People often pirate things, then buy them when they have the money. Piracy is a REALLY poor argument for NOT releasing software. All those huge software companies better stop making/selling programs because people are just gonna pirate it.

 

Also, I really hope these "communities" already have systems in place for people to NOT request/upload illegal versions of RM2k3. Regardless if there's a legal english version or not. I have encountered users who HAVE bought the japanese versions of Rm2k/3, so it's not like a legal version isn't accessible; it's just that a legal non-japanese version is non-accessible.

 

And that's the other thing that worries me. Our communities have a pretty decent thing going on with Degica now, that I'd hate to ruin the relationship over a disagreement. The world has come to accept that communities allow use of RM2K3 resources and games, and EB has decided to no longer try to prosecute its use. But if the communities aren't willing to support a legal copy of this by enforcing piracy laws in fear of losing their members, how does that support Degica? Will this create an even greater mess for future products? Is Degica okay with continued use of pirated material when there is a legal copy that can be purchased?

 

I've been using the software since RPG Maker 95, and I don't remember whatever company (who was producing the software) ever prosecuting anyone over using their software illegally. Could you point out a time where they did? (I believe ASCII developed 95, 2000 and 2003? I could be wrong)

 

And why wouldn't the communities support a legal version? The communities SHOULD NOT be "supporting" illegal use of the software anyways. It's not a matter of turning a "blind eye," it's a matter of not prosecuting people over a matter that cannot be easily proved/disproved or regulated. It's easy to ban members for trying to distribute pirated software, but how do you control members from going over to the bay and downloading it anyways?

 

Also, I always wondered whether "Degica" ever really cared about people using pirated material. RTP is free download for ANYONE (you do not need to own the software), and the trial version can be tricked into thinking it's the full version without much technical knowledge, no cracking necessary.

 

There are many arguments as to why a legal version should not/will not be made, but I think the whole piracy/legal issue is never a reason not to develop a program. If piracy is a reason for not developing software, then software should never be developed ever.