Will Scripting Class Return?

[ShinGamix 1]

I was so happy when I saw this but so sad when I entered the forum for it. It was a year or so out of date.

CRAP!

So is there anyone who can bring it back??? ANYONE?

[Marked 197]

It's not coming back like we had it. Scripting classes do not work, not at least in the circumstances we had them. There's almost no difference from having tutorials posted. What is the difference from the Leon, the scripting teacher, telling you to read through the lessons and you actually reading through the lessons yourself?

 

I was never really a fan of the rmxp training center, I feel like it never worked properly. Perhaps the commitment was just too much for some of the teachers, but admittedly there was some successful classes but short periods of time.

 

I am interested in setting up some kind of tutoring system where experts can teach, perhaps one on one. There are more efficient ways to develop members' skills than static tutorials, but first the community must develop the means to sustain such a feature.

[Saltome 16]

Hmm, best way to teach is by giving people a task they cant complete by themselves, tell them how to solve the problem, and let them figure out how to apply the solution by themselves, giving them hints to nudge them in the right direction as needed.

This is also good because they can participate in a creation process while still learning.

 

Though I dont think there is anything wrong with having a set tutorial so you can learn what's what. Personally I prefer learning the building blocks from a tutorial, and figure out how to put them together by myself.

Infact the very first thing i do when i teach someone something about making games is, "go read this tutorial". Then I give them a task and advice on how they can improve their execution and why it works.

 

Its important to know what kind of tasks to give and when, to keep a balance in the number of students each class has, build a teaching plan, grades and stuff, in general making an effective school is kind of a hasstle.

Which explains why nobody has ever done it right in the past :D

[Marked 197]

Agreed. I once attempted to learn PHP via tutorials and I stopped and got bored even before learning about arrays. A few years later I waned to implement some unique functionality to the site, and that got the ball rolling for me and to tell you the truth I have read very few tutorials. A few, but its obvious that the real knowledge comes from doing it rather than reading about it. I imagine tutorials like opening a door to a room with several other doors, and to unlock those doors you have to apply the knowledge you learnt from the first door. Each door unlocked is a new piece of knowledge.

 

But you have given me an idea for a tutorials system which I had planned for a while. I really want to give authors a lot of control over their tutorials. Submitting a topic is fine, but submitting a topic in a forum for a timeless article is just in efficient. I think there are ways we can promote far better learning systems, including as you mentioned, some sort of task that ought to be completed after reading a tutorial.

[Moonpearl 32]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I'm all about teaching, but on the other hand I have the feeling that people who ask for help regarding scripts do not wish to learn anything - they just want stuff that works and they don't give a damn whether they've done it by themselves or not. Besides, scripting is probably the part of game-making which is the most difficult to get started with, so I believe it takes real commitment to actually take advantage of a scripting class, I mean you do not script casually, right?

[Saltome 16]

Mark, I think this should work is like a martial arts class. As you learn you gain new ranks and then you can teach people who are of the lower ranks and to participate in projects that need someone not above your rank.

 

Moonpearl, i don't completely agree. There is absolutely no need for a designer to learn scripting, but they can still be taught how to design good games. People who request scripts are people who have ideas but cant realize them, and people who make scripts are people who can make code, but don't know how to make it interesting. Of course at some point you can learn both things, but you need someone that knows what you don't until you can get there.

[ShinGamix 1]

I am very eager to learn to script for one of the three major rpg makers. I have been wanting to learn for a while now. Moonpearl I am ready to commit to a scripting teacher!

 

-teach me my master.

[Saltome 16]

Well, like I said to Mark, the first thing I say to people when I teach them something is, "Go read that tutorial!. So go read the scripting tutorial in the training center, will help you understand the basics i hope.

 

PS: Man that place really is outdated. Its like a damn ghost town.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Saltome

[Moonpearl 32]

Well, like I said to Mark, the first thing I say to people when I teach them something is, "Go read that tutorial!.

Well, I might be a little old fashioned but that's the last thing I would advise to do. I believe the thing with scripting is not just to learn how to do things, but rather to learn how to think things. Well then, a tutorial is a pre-thought solution that might teach you a few things regarding Ruby and all, but it fails to teach you the most important step behind all this. Or at least that's my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, I've never used any scripting tutorials, I learned by myself just looking at RMXP's base code and trying to mess with it. Then I used Ruby documentation to try and determine how my ideas could be translated into code - but I had thought what I would program beforehand.

 

That might sound trivial but I've received many requests from novice scripters who had come up with code that would technically work, but was so terribly badly designed that it would require rewriting it entirely for each single little add.

 

Anyways, I would advise going through RMXP's base code before trying to do anything else, and then ask a teacher any questions that come to mind (I mean a person who explicitly agreed to take time and answer them) to help you get a better view of how things are done. I believe that a bottom-up approach works better than a top-down one (i.e. the training process is run by the learner, and only he decides when the teacher comes in, rather than the reverse).

[Saltome 16]

I agree with you that he wont learn much from the tutorial, but he will learn the basics, its no need for a teacher until he knows those.

And I'd advice against meddling in rpg maker's default scripts, jumping right in the deep waters forces you to deal with the shock of the new environment, reducing the actual amount you learn. Also I'm a good scripter, but I still have a hard time understanding what the hell were the guys at Enterbrain thinking at some places of the rpg maker scripts.

I also strongly disagree that the learner knows when he needs a teacher, that's why you are a teacher because you KNOW what needs to be learned and when.

[Moonpearl 32]

I also strongly disagree that the learner knows when he needs a teacher,

Maybe not, but they know when there's something they don't understand, which the teacher can't possibly since he has to understand what he's supposed to teach. Also, the learner knows better what he doesn't know yet, so all in all I'd say he's in better position to know when to ask questions.

 

that's why you are a teacher because you KNOW what needs to be learned and when.

Not necessarily. You know what you learned and in what order you did, but for one that's not necessarily the optimal course to follow, and second there's a possibility that the person you're trying to teach has a completely different learning style, in which case trying to impose your way of seeing things on them will be nothing but counterproductive. Also, when I mean the learner should lead their own course, it doesn't mean that the teacher is restricted from giving them advice (nor is the learner restricted to ask for some). What I'm saying is that it should be up to the learner what advice to follow and why choose this course over that. After all, they're not learning for your sake, but for theirs.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Moonpearl

[ShinGamix 1]

If you guys don't want to teach then that's all I needed to hear. The reverse enginnering approach doesn't work for me as I been messing up scripts that way for a while now.

 

So just keep playing with electricity until the light shines up?

[Saltome 16]

Its kinda easy to know what the student doesn't understand when you give them a task, that's the point of having tests. And no there is no way for the student to know what he needs to learn because he has never been trough it, he can only assume what he can improve. That's why you can teach, because you have been trough it and you know what needs to be learned.

 

And no, I know the sum of what I have learned, I don't believe that's the only order of learning things. You can't really tell what's the optimal course of action until you have two different courses to compare.

Yes if you force the wrong approach on someone they aren't gonna learn much, but picking the right style is also part of a teacher's job. They might have the right to choose, but that doesn't make them more qualified to make that choice.

 

Shin, nobody said that we don't want to teach you, we are just arguing about the role of a teacher. Thought to be honest I'm not looking for people to teach at this point. So I won't enforce my methods on you, I'll let Moonpearl teach you the way he sees fit.

[Moonpearl 32]

I'll let Moonpearl teach you the way he sees fit.

This is the way I teach - I wait for students to come up with questions and then set up lessons and exercises adapted to answer them. So feel free.

[Marked 197]

Interesting discussion :)

 

Right now what I have in mind for a tutorials section isn't exactly a teaching facility with interactions. It's more of a system to aid authors in creating their tutorials (anyone remember the tutorial system I released ages ago that I made from joomla?), to organize groups of tutorials together to allow users to work their way through (you can see the differences here from posted topics into a forum) and also to promote or aid authors in creating practical tasks, although I guess at the end of the day that's up to the author. But its easy to have an option when creating a tutorial to "Insert Assignment"; you set the task, then you have the completed task in a spoiler for the member to compare (thats just an idea off the top of my head).

 

The idea for it is a static system, aside from comments, but its far more organized and easy to find what you're looking for and whether that tutorial is suitable for your current skill level.

 

The main objective is to make it as easy possible for members to develop their skills by making it very easy for tutorial authors to organize their tutorials, and for members to find those tutorials easily at any time (as opposed to a great tutorial sinking further and further down a forum).

[ShinGamix 1]

So where do I start MoonPearl?

 

-and my light still has come on..maybe I should just shove this screwdriver into the light socket? Then maybe the light would come on?

[Saltome 16]

Organizing things is always beneficial. I don't think its gonna change the learning process much, but its gonna help people find what they are looking for.

 

I'm thinking maybe a collapsible navigational tree

 

Shin, first you need to pick a goal, then start asking Moonpearl questions about how to do it.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Saltome

[Moonpearl 32]

So where do I start MoonPearl?

Wherever you like. That's the point of you leading your own learning course - before you get anything from your teacher you have to run into issues you can't solve beforehand, which gives you a chance to wonder about them and thus have your own insight (whether right or wrong, it doesn't matter) before getting the solution, instead of just being filled up with things you'd not even imagined yet. Besides, it ensures that you're interested in what you get to learn, which is important too.

 

I can imagine there are tons of stuff you wish to ask and you don't know where to begin. You could start off with very basic questions, like "what does this statement do?" or "what is the difference between those two classes?", or on the contrary jump to sophisticated matters like "how do I program such a system?"... And don't worry, however complex the answer might be, I can always say "we would need to go through that other matter first" - which is, by the way, another reason why I don't feel like taking the initiative with what to study: I have no idea of your current level beforehand, so seeing what kind of questons you come up with will greatly help me determine it.

 

Since you said you've already messed with RMXP base code, I'm sure there's stuff, however trivial, that you've always been wondering about.