Why are you here?

[Saltome 16]

Well guys, why are you all here?

The reason I came to this community was the friendly and supportive attitude.

But all I see since I joined, are a couple of people who couldn't care less about anything other than their petty little projects. There have been attempts to unite the community, everyone just want to be in charge, and nobody wants to listen.

This forum is sinking, and unless we put our efforts toward a common goal it will be gone before the end of the year. Are you going to allow it?

[Marked 197]

I see none of that. Examples?

[Saltome 16]

Do you really want to argue with me when I am trying to save your website? :grin:

If you want an example, let me just mention the "community project". That keeps failing, a 4rd year in a row.

Or maybe I should mention all the "members" who only come to find people for their own websites?

[Marked 197]

The last 2 community projects have not be endorsed by me/the site and therefore aren't really "community projects", they're more so members from the site who want to get together and create a game from no base. The other 2 failed projects happened when the site was doing just fine :)

 

I think it's not quite accurate to lay the problems on the current members who don't do so much, or as you seem to put it, not the right things. I think the focus should be converting our current guests to members, which should be measurable able by the number of new intro topics. So personally I'm not concerned with the issues you mentioned. A community is always going to have a bunch of people and you can't change how individuals post. Instead of changing them, you need new people.

 

In terms of where the website is going (as opposed to the community) I've got a suprise in the works that I've been working on for some time. I think that it will set us on the right path and hopefully convert some of the guests to members. I think we're going to be a unique website by the time I'm done.

[Bigace360 38]

We need some how draw all the members from rpgmakervxace.net and rpgmakerweb.com bring them over here. How? I have no clue, but it would be good for the site if can draw them over here. Also your reason makes no sense, half those projects were started by Noob who can't even keep a site up for more then 2 months. Look at the anime site it's already closed and he just started it 3 months ago. 

My point is blaming this site on people worrying about their projects makes no since sense this is a RPG maker (and other makers) site that is mainly for talking about and helping on video games. 

[Saltome 16]

Even if only two projects were failed does that make you feel better about the community failing to work together?

Doesn't the fact that the skilled members don't even bother trying any more?

Further more, each of those failures was a sign that things are getting worse.

And doesn't it bother you at all that so far, out of the entire site only two people even bothered to acknowledge this topic?

This isn't the first time the community shows no interest in what I want to do for them either.

 

What's been done in the past stays in the past, it's the current members that need to make a difference for their own future.

Making guests into members, especially skilled and useful members takes a long time.

And there isn't anyone to teach them anyway.

Also people won't stay in a place that isn't active enough.

Why would you stay in a community where people don't do anything to help you?

No matter how many guests you convert it's all for nothing if they leave in a week.

There will always be members who are more willing to help themselves than those who need it,

But they need to realize that if they don't change they are not going to survive, at least not as a community.

And that's the point of this topic, to hopefully wake people up.

 

Despite the lack of solid results I believe you that you are working hard on the website, however it's pointless without members to use it. It won't be any good if you make an awesome tool for developers when it will only be used by wannabe amateurs to host dead projects.

 

We don't have a problem attracting attention, we have a problem retaining new members.

And they won't stay until we offer them something. I don't see what we can offer them when our activity is not only bad, but reducing. And yes Ace, that's what happens when you have a website without a community, it dies. I don't want to follow the same path.

Makes perfect sense to me, what kind of site are we if people are too busy helping themselves to help each other?

Might as well add you on skype and never come to the site, like I've been doing.

Which is all fine with me, except that the site won't survive.

[Tomo2000 60]

Even if only two projects were failed does that make you feel better about the community failing to work together?

Doesn't the fact that the skilled members don't even bother trying any more?

 

We've tried community projects before, and even group-like projects, but all that ends up happening is that the majority of people procrastinate, and say that they either need scripts, or sprites, or maps, or whatever. So, the main mapper makes some maps, the main scripter makes some scripts, main spriter makes some sprites, and, after all of that is done, all interest is dropped; like a bad joke. That's why the "skilled" members don't bother trying. If you hit a dog long enough, it learns to avoid entering the situation in which it gets hurt. Shock treatment.

 

However, I think that 'community' projects are a bit too open ended. Everyone wants something their way, and that's where organization completely fails. Granted, if it's a good idea, it would be added to it, but mostly it's not-too-great ideas, or ideas that clash with the already established storyline, which helps destroy the project. If you really want a community project, you'd want to set up something as a community project, with a base storyline, which can be expanded on, but not too basic.

 

 

And doesn't it bother you at all that so far, out of the entire site only two people even bothered to acknowledge this topic?

 

We've had our fair share of flame wars. As I said before, avoid the situation in which you get hurt, or, moreso, the reputation of users and the community.

 

 

And there isn't anyone to teach them anyway.

 

There are people to teach them, but, as proven, the classes don't exactly get a lot of responses or anything. That's why the tutorials section was established. But, beside that, people want everything handed to them on a silver platter these days. They want to pick up a game maker and just magically create the perfect, best-selling game of all time, and that'll never happen. I imagine lots of people who want to make something custom in RPG Maker just completely lose interest over how complicated it is to actually make something from code; essentially from scratch. I'm sure that, if there were more demand for classes, there would be more classes. Supply and demand, really, but you need that demand before there would be a half-decent supply. There will always be a supply, but, the more it's wanted, the more people will actually make it. Lots of people on the forums who make things these days, me included, want nothing more than a bit of satisfaction from people enjoying what you've made.

 

 

There will always be members who are more willing to help themselves than those who need it,

 

That's because people are selfish. There are a lot of people willing to help others here. You make it sound like RMU has a plague of selfishness.

 

We don't have a problem attracting attention, we have a problem retaining new members.

 

There's no real solution to that. It takes a specific mindset to be able to code, to sprite, to understand complex eventing. Lots of people expect to be able to make something incredible on their first try, and usually this disappointment drives them away. I'd much rather have a small community of people who have the capability to understand and comprehend these, and the ability to learn, rather than a huge community of people who don't know what the event layer is.

[Saltome 16]

Well I'm sorry if you are butthurt, but the skilled do the most work, that's just how it goes. When you have the skill you pass it around, otherwise you become some elitist jerk. The only thing you can do is teach other people how to do it themselves, but it's easier to write a tutorial and leave people to fend for themselves.

I know how it feels to fight for someone else's ideas, but in any project you need organization otherwise it will fall apart. This is why we are here, but we can't even help each other.

You are here because you can take more hits than a newbie, you are here to protect them from it.

From experience I know that helping unconditionally eventually tires you out without changing the situation, but that's no excuse to quit.

For it to improve we need to show people the way. We need to show the people how awesome it is to be a developer, that it's worth the stress and effort. Only then will they choose to stay and learn from us.

We are not dogs we are the backbone of the gaming industry, where heroes are shaped before the world discovers them.

We are here to set an example.

 

 

Reputation you say? We are losing much more by remaining indifferent to what's happening to us.

 

 

There is supply, yes. But you need to provide the right kind of supply.

Teaching people, is more than writing a text document about a certain topic.

They don't want everything on a silver platter, they just want to be sure their time investment really is worth it.

They need someone to explain to them what went wrong, and keep their spirits up so they won't quit whenever they come across a hurdle. They need reassurance, and appreciation, just like everybody else.

People need support, and that's why we are here. Not to look at them coming and going.

 

I find it hard to believe that there are "a lot of people willing to help others here", when most requests go unfulfilled.

 

And about your last paragraph. People are like an unwritten program. What you write on them determines how they develop. You can write to them, change them, rewrite them, erase them, it's only a matter of time. The only mindset you need is determination, but even that can be hardwired in you.

 

I don't know about you, but I don't roll this way. I refuse to quit, no matter how long it takes.

[Marked 197]

Even if only two projects were failed does that make you feel better about the community failing to work together?

This community project talk, its neither here nor there. It's irrelevant now, for the reasons I've said, and the facts the members have left.

 

Doesn't the fact that the skilled members don't even bother trying any more?

And doesn't it bother you at all that so far, out of the entire site only two people even bothered to acknowledge this topic?

This isn't the first time the community shows no interest in what I want to do for them either.

It doesn't bother me necessarily but I do agree it's negative and obviously its a sign of inactivity. But it's what is expected right now in the current state. If you leave a website on its own, it's unlikely to fix its own inactivity problems.

 

Despite the lack of solid results I believe you that you are working hard on the website, however it's pointless without members to use it. It won't be any good if you make an awesome tool for developers when it will only be used by wannabe amateurs to host dead projects.

What came first, the members or the website? This isn't even the website's final form. I'm working pretty hard on the new updates. I could upload them at time but they'd be incomplete if I did so, so I'm holding off and trying to get a more comprehensively complete website. Actually, I haven't even started work on the forums yet.

 

We need some how draw all the members from rpgmakervxace.net and rpgmakerweb.com bring them over here. How? I have no clue

We're definitely the underdogs. Competing against the owners of the software and a site who got in first and registered the domain of the current and most popular engine. They certainly don't have the content dilemmas we do. I do have a plan though. I thought you guys could probably guess what it is ;)

 

I'm personally quite excited about the site's future. You guys should be too, coz your faith in the website fuels me to work more. I'm gona make some really really cool shiz.

[dolarmak 23]

Personally Saltome, I don't think you have the right to complain about some of this stuff. You're a relatively new member, you're not really one to talk about activity (with less than 1 post per day) and I hardly ever see you post on threads to help fix the problems people are having with scripts or just general help.

 

Yes a lot of our members left, but I think Marked is doing a bang up job with the updates to the site. Some of our old members come back periodically but with big projects they kind of get lost in the game they are designing. Real life also has a way of knocking on your door some times in ways that can't be avoided. You can't blame them for that.

 

As for the Community projects failing (be it the official or other wise) I think the failure is the scope of the projects, lack of preparation and as Tomo said lack of motivation. It's hard to keep an "internet group" together and your inexperience shows in what you say.

 

We are NOT the back bone of the Gaming Industry. We're just a group of people who love games and want to try and make one. Sadly very few of us will actually succeed in making a game for various reasons. It's even harder to make a independent game popular, for ever popular indy game you see, there are 3000 games that go unseen. And to be perfectly honest, most of them arn't really worth much to anyone except the guy who made it. It's not wrong that he did, but most people have an audience of 1, you just have to accept that.

 

 

Do you really want to argue with me when I am trying to save your website?

I'd also like to say that you're being a bit arrogant. No offense but you're not even a key member here, you're not a moderator or admin. What makes you think that just bashing the website and members (because in all the stuff you wrote you didn't post a single solution to any problem) will achieve anything other than alienating yourself against the rest of the forum.

[Saltome 16]

Haha, sounds like you are challenging me Mak.

I find your ignorance both amusing and infuriating at the same time.

My very first post was a 3 line solution to a critical bug in one of the scripts hosted here. Where all of you "old" members were too busy with your own deal to fix it.

And the majority of my posts are in that same manner, or at the very least aimed at doing something for or with other people, often for this very forum. Unlike some, once again "old" members, who use the forum as an advertisement platform for their own websites.

And you dare say that I am not only inactive but that I am not helping anybody?

 

It's true that I am not active any more, and you have only yourselves to blame. The only reason I am still around is my loyalty, I don't even have the site on my quick bar any more.

 

I know how annoying it is to see a newcomer stirring your idyllic existence. I also know how annoying newcomers can be in their strife to prove their worth. But don't forget that a newcomer can tell you best, what's wrong and how to fix it, because after a while you don't even notice the problems any more.

 

Moving on to another point of yours.

Do not confuse my idealistic understanding with lack of experience.

I never said that it's easy to organize an online team, especially a large one.

But to let your team fall apart is quite disgraceful.

 

I have started at least 3 teams on this forum, none of them made it past the recruitment stage. And I didn't officiate any of them, because I knew they don't have what they need to survive as a team.

Before I came here I was vice manager of a a medium development team

Not to mention the gaming clans I've been in.

I can't say I'm a pro, but I am pretty damn experienced.

 

 

Like I said, places like here are where the game developers hone their skills, and without them the gaming industry will simply run out of workers. So I'd say we are pretty important to the industry.

 

If you think that indie games aren't popular, you haven't been paying attention.

Most of them just die out before they can fulfill their potential.

And I will tell you the only reason people fail to make their games, hubris.

They think that they can do everything themselves, they think that they know best, they think that they deserve to be paid for doing what they like.

They can't and they don't, but they refuse to compromise, and that's why they don't make it to the end.

[dolarmak 23]

First of all it seems to be you who need to read.

 

I didn't say you NEVER help, I said hardly ever. I know you have posted a few things, but in the last few months you've done nearly nothing. Again, nearly.

I hardly ever see you post on threads to help fix the problems people are having with scripts or just general help.

Of the last 100 problems you've helped a few. I'm happy you helped, but you're not an active member who is always around to help. Your absence isn't noticed as much on the support forums as say Pol's, Ace's or Diago's would be (which they seem to live here lol).

 

To blame the other members for your not getting along with us is kinda a douche-bag move. We don't expect you to come and get along with every one, but in my encounters with you in the chat lead me to believe you are arrogant and rather full of your self. Your behavior also makes me think you enjoy the conflict by posting such threads, I prefer not to get into these kinds of debates because they are mostly opinion based. You have the right to your own opinion, but attacking people with it is wrong.

The only reason I posted on this thread to begin with is your insult to Marked, who is trying damn hard to get this site up and help us have a community of like minded people to help and enjoy making games. He doesn't have to do this for us, he doesn't even really like RPGMaker.

 

The problem with Team making here and on all forums is that you need to be well known in the community, an no one here really knows you well Saltome. Most if not all people only put effort into projects which they believe will succeed. Since they don't know you (or other new members asking for help by building a team) they can't be sure you'll stick around to actually finish the project instead of just dropping it like 95% of people do. You can say or scream all you like that you will stick with it, but you have no creditability here yet. It takes years for creditability to be built, new members don't realize this. Would you be willing to put 10-20Hours a week into a project who was being developed by a guy you only just met...for FREE? Even after you know that there is a 95% chance of them dropping their project on a whim.

This has nothing to do with your experience. Its all about knowing the person and if they'll really stick it through.

 

On that note I haven't actually seen any of your games. If you have any done, post them, I'd like to see this experience you claim to have. (this isn't meant to be offensive in any way, i would like to see what you've done)

 

Also I never said Indy games weren't popular, I said that most Indy Games aren't popular. Do you know how many indy games float around on the internet with only 1-5 downloads...the majority of them. The few you see on gaming review sites are the few who have managed to come on top. Next time you visit a Indy game making forum (be it here, a RM site or other engine) see how many members that site has and remember that every single member has tried to or wants to build a game. Now see how many on that forum has achieved their goal. Numbers don't lie. As much as we want to make games, it isn't easy, they hardly ever see the light of day and those that do are rarely popularized. This isn't meant to discourage you from making a game, but it is necessary to understand that the real world is a harsh critic.

Hell, Newgrounds.com is one of the biggest forums for indy flash game makers, and how many do you honestly remember by name of the 10 million games up there? The ratio isn't as nice as you would hope.

 

As for the Gaming Industries need for game makers...to be honest most new people who get into the AAA companies don't have experience making games. They are hard coders who build business programs. The Indy scene isn't as important as you might think. I have friends who work for EA and Ubisoft, and they told me the same thing. None of their recruits have any real experience building games, most come out of university with the ability to build business programs but want to build games.

 

And I will tell you the only reason people fail to make their games, hubris.

They think that they can do everything themselves, they think that they know best, they think that they deserve to be paid for doing what they like.

They can't and they don't, but they refuse to compromise, and that's why they don't make it to the end.

I think you are wrong. The reason most games don't get made it that they are a HUGE investment of time and energy. Most people don't have the time needed to make a full game because their lives demand they work, go to school or they have family problems.

Most technical problems can be and are solved on sites just like this one. One of the biggest problem people have is learning to search for what they need. I don't know how many times people have asked for something that already exists and solves their problem right then and there.

As for not being able to do it all by them selves...well the majority have to. (see: problem with team making)

[Chief 30]

In terms of where the website is going (as opposed to the community) I've got a suprise in the works that I've been working on for some time. I think that it will set us on the right path and hopefully convert some of the guests to members. I think we're going to be a unique website by the time I'm done.

 

Skype me about this.... if it is what I think it is, I am totally on board!

[Saltome 16]

You may not have said "never" but you offended me none the less.
I'll be frank with you, the reason I stopped being active was Pol. Completely out of the blue he issud me an admin ban for arguing with someone when I was just trying to help the thickheaded guy.
It felt like a great injustice and it killed my desire to go out of my way help people.
Like Tomo said, even dogs learn not to go where they get whiped.
That's when I moved to the chat, where I continued helping people who asked for it.
And for the most part I still don't see you helping each other.
The only activity takes place in people's own game or script topic.
I rarely see anyone reply to a random help request, or do anything other than update their project.

I don't blame anyone for not getting along with them, I blame them for being indifferent, and I don't get along with them for the very same reason.

I post "such threads" to provoke people into action.
Instead, they just ramble on about how I'm totally wrong, and in the end they do what I said anyway.
But I guess in the end time will show.

Conflicting opinions are unavoidable, your options are to cooperate, to fight it out or to pretend nothing happened.
I don't exactly like the idea of ignoring the problem because in the end it just gets worse.
And I can't really cooperate with people, since they don't want to cooperate.
That only leaves me the option to prove them wrong.

I don't believe the only reason for you to get involved in this topic, after I was already done, was me "insulting" Marked.
Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about all those other things.

And I'd like to know how exactly am I insulting him when I keep mentioning how hard he is working.
What bothers me is that the rest of the community doesn't show his resolve.
And if you are all so like minded, why doesn't anything ever get done?

I'm new, more or less, forget about me. Why aren't you helping each other, why don't you work together?
I know that people are reluctant to get involved with people they don't know, but that bothers me.
You must realize that before I came here I was somewhere else, I wasn't born yesterday, like every other member.
Besides, we are a game developer website, we are here to make games, if we don't make games we aren't really fulfilling our purpose.
I really don't know why people are so afraid, sure a project can always fail, so what? Save what you can and move on, there is no need for tears.
As long as you don't give up you can always find someone else to help you pick up where you left.

When I said experience I was talking about organizational experience.
I tend to avoid making games because my standards are higher than my abilities.
But I do have a couple of demos, and my community project is still alive.

If you want to see what I've done why don't you?
It's in my signature for a reason.
And I don't want to make a topic about it since I'm not working on them any more
and they aren't a fair display of my ability any more.

I don't really care about the numbers, as far as I am concerned there are a ton of people who want to make games and a ton of projects that need people to make them.
And I want to make people see that if they help each other more of their games will actually succeed.

It's true the industry does resort to coders more than gamers, but that's the very reason why games aren't all that good nowadays.
And that has negative if not fatal results on them.
They will either realize that, and recruit more indie developers,
or the indie sphere will use the moment to take the lead in the market.
Of course there's the whole economic and social crisis and blah blah, but I digress.

The bottom line is, if people were less cautious of each other things would go better for them.
In the end time and effort are only as expensive as you decide.

[Marked 197]

I'll be frank with you, the reason I stopped being active was Pol. Completely out of the blue he issud me an admin ban for arguing with someone when I was just trying to help the thickheaded guy.

That's really unfortunate, because I immediately backed you up on that topic but apparently that wasn't enough to stop this from happening. Which is unfortunate. In my opinion, Pol made a mistake and you just happen to make a post where the topic starter was more sensitive than usual (no offense topic-start, I still see you lurking sometimes.

 

 

And for the most part I still don't see you helping each other.

The only activity takes place in people's own game or script topic.

I rarely see anyone reply to a random help request, or do anything other than update their project

I didn't think the lack of people helping each other on the support forums so bad, I do see people replying. I agree that these problems do exist, it's quite obvious. I think that generally you're going to get that on a forum which suffers from a lack of active people. There is always going to be a percentage who post and contribute out of the members who are there. So I believe that merely increasing the numbers will go a long way to making these issues better. I don't think that any member has an obligation to post and traditionally it's not just the long-term members who help, its everyone, newbies included.  

 

 

Skype me about this.... if it is what I think it is, I am totally on board!

That's coming next :grin: I'm really glad with the way things are progressing, slowly but surely. The main issue with this is bandwidth, in the short term I'm gona have to go with external hosting unless I can get my hands on some 3rd party API (which would be really cool). But, the main application could be and running soon :)

[Meteor Rain 0]

But all I see since I joined, are a couple of people who couldn't care less about anything other than their petty little projects.

thats the most bullshit part of all the stuff that you mentioned

 

but could you all pls stop arguing and go to my website pls www.rpggame.com tyyy

[Saltome 16]

... Dude, you just proved the very point you objected against.

I don't think this topic is the right place to advertise your site either.

Feel free to make a topic about it, explaining why the hell should any of us go there.

[Marked 197]

thats the most bullshit part of all the stuff that you mentioned

 

but could you all pls stop arguing and go to my website pls www.rpggame.com tyyy

I like your enthusiasm but if you're going to describe someone's post with a word like "bullshit" you should at least chuck in a few reasons why. :P

 

I'm guessing your last sentence is joke? It's not even a real website yet.

[Meteor Rain 0]

It was just a joke  :grin:

I'm not browsing these forums long enough to know if it's true or not ^^