Great...

[Jon Bon 43]

but to recruit another member into the Army of Jesus Christ,

 

The word god doesn't automatically mean Jesus Christ or Christianity, where did mentioning them come from? Now who has a biased view point? I never even mentioned either of those two concepts until now referencing your use. I only pointed out that in AA's official literature they want you to give yourself to god, I and they never said/say which religion/god. Please do not put words into my or their mouth(s).

 

Like I said, believe what you will.

I speak from an NA perspective, but you are taking the God thing out of context. NA usually uses the term "Higher Power", which is anything bigger or more enduring than you that helps you stay clean.

 

Thought like that is the problem with their system it's a crutch for people who can walk fine on their own (speaking from first hand experience). Nothing is more powerful than yourself, you have all the power you need to stay clean, and Everyone has the potential to get clean by finding the strength within themselves, and that is what they aren't teaching.

[ForeverZer0 44]

So lets see here, a support group SHOULD teach others that they do not need a support group. Hmm. Seems kind of a contradiction to itself, but hey, that's just what I got from it. Lets see how that would work:

---

JimBob the addict can't seem to stop using drugs. His life is in shambles, and yet he still can't seem to figure out how to maintain sobriety. He has tried, but eventually always seems to find his way back into it.

 

"Hmmm, maybe I should try one of them meetings I have heard about, since I obviously lack the willpower to do this on my own." JimBob ponders to himself one day. JimBob fully realizes that it takes willpower to quit, but yet he has found that he either has not enough of it, or there is something else to it.

 

Later on that day, JimBob goes to a local meeting to see what its about. He finds a chair in the corner, takes a seat and sits quietly by himself. The meeting begins. There is a speaker. He approaches the podium.

 

"None of you actually need to be here! You all have the simply lack the willpower to do this on your own!" the speaker proclaims.

 

"Well, duh." JimBob thinks, "that's why I came."

 

The meeting then ends, and JimBob is now recovered.

[forcebreaker 0]

http://www.planetmin...ungeons-896159/

downloads, comments, and diamonds are appreciated

 

DUDE!!! I will give this a try! So, you made this?

 

EDIT: AWWWW SNAP!! >:( Sorry, nevermind, i cant, the stupid filter on my computer blocks me. Is thier another link?

Edited June 20, 2012 by forcebreaker

[Jon Bon 43]

Support groups work great, that's why there is no need at all for a higher power of any kind, that's literally just stuff added on top. You just need a bunch of people with a similar problem around sharing their strength to give you the strength you need, no higher power there. The strength is within yourself and when necessary you can use the help of others to help you find it within yourself, I don't know where the higher power comes into play. A 'high power' is some vague concept, where as people and yourself are real, those are tangible concepts you see to exist and count on that.

[Ecowolfsteen 14]

I didn't mean for this topic to be an argument.

[Jon Bon 43]

I didn't mean for this topic to be an argument.

 

We aren't arguing, I am stating facts as presented by the group in question. It's not an argument it's a discussion. I doubt he's mad (and if he was I would apologize as that is not my intent, it is only to inform fact), and neither am I, that's all that matters. We are both proposing our points and discussing the others when proposed. This is very civil in my opinion.

[forcebreaker 0]

If a young Elephant grows up, being chained to a post, and does not have the strength to break free from it.....When it grows up it still believes it cant, even though its body is much stronger now then it was then. It gives in to the slightest pull of resistance on the chain. Im not sure where, but somewhere in the world thats how they train elephants.

 

You might argue that there is a big difference between elephants and humans, but my point is that for some people, the habbits and addictions are so deeply woven into who they are, for so long, they believe they need a strength more then themselves or human ability. I believe the Lord, and that he can help those people. But i also believe that even if you do believe in God, and/or go to the AA meetings, but dont really want it, to develop the disapline and self control needed to overcome that chain, then you cant exspect to become free of it....thats just common sence.

 

Well...so....thats my two cents.

Edited June 20, 2012 by forcebreaker

[ForeverZer0 44]

Support groups work great, that's why there is no need at all for a higher power of any kind, that's literally just stuff added on top. You just need a bunch of people with a similar problem around sharing their strength to give you the strength you need, no higher power there. The strength is within yourself and when necessary you can use the help of others to help you find it within yourself, I don't know where the higher power comes into play. A 'high power' is some vague concept, where as people and yourself are real, those are tangible concepts you see to exist and count on that.

 

This is kinda where the misconception of the "higher power" things is, at least as far as I have ever seen taught throughout rehabs and meetings. Their strength that they give to you IS a "higher power". That's how it is taught in NA. Talk of religion and God doesn't really come into play. Sure, many people choose to use religion and their God as their "higher power", but it is no way the rule. Believe me, their are plenty of atheist who use the program.

[Jon Bon 43]

If a young Elephant grows up, being chained to a post, and does not have the strength to break free from it.....When it grows up it still believes it cant, even though its body is much stronger now then it was then. It gives in to the slightest pull of resistance on the chain. Im not sure where, but somewhere in the world thats how they train elephants.

 

You might argue that there is a big difference between elephants and humans, but my point is that for some people, the habbits and addictions are so deeply woven into who they are, for so long, they believe they need a strength more then themselves or human ability. I believe the Lord, and that he can help those people. But i also believe that even if you do believe in God, and/or go to the AA meetings, but dont really want it, to develop the disapline and self control needed to overcome that chain, then you cant exspect to become free of it....thats just common sence.

 

Well...so....thats my two cents.

 

I love your metaphor, it's perfect in my opinion. And I fully agree even as an atheist myself that religion (some/any) can help people who need it. The problem with AA is it is pushed as the only cure, which factually it is not, I am living proof. It is pushed so much as the only cure in the United States of America it is actually court mandated to attend AA (not a support group of your choice, but specifically AA), this is a breach of the bill of rights for their country because on AA's official website it says 'god' in their 12 steps and specifically giving yourself to him. Religion is a choice, and should not be forced upon people, especially those potentially in need of help.

AA and religion can and does help people, I will be the first to admit it. However it is not the only solution by a long shot, and that organization would not have you believing their are alternative methods. I am for freedom of choice and people are free to choose AA to help them, but they must understand it is of religious design (which is fine for some, but not for me so I advocate awareness).

 

Here is a link to their official timeline from their official page, this is how they post their history of their group.

http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/

 

I quote:

"The origins of Alcoholics Anonymous can be traced to the Oxford Group, a religious movement popular in the United States and Europe during the early 20th Century."

How can that be refuted, that's them saying that, not me.

 

Their strength that they give to you IS a "higher power". That's how it is taught in NA.

That is a clever way to exclude god, and I commend them for it. Your program sounds like it works the way support groups were intended to.

 

at least as far as I have ever seen taught throughout rehabs and meetings.

Yes, some groups even affiliated with AA have chosen to change out god for 'higher power', but as you saw their official website says otherwise, and from their history they are a religious movement. I can not speak for your group or your experience, it's likely yours was not of religious intent or design, but that doesn't change the factual history of AA and their affiliate groups based on their presented information. It's on their official website today as their view which says 'god' specifically, not 'higher power' which can mean what you were explained it to be but unfortunately is not how they wish it to be taught, since that's not how they chose to post it for the world to see. If they wanted it to be 'higher power' and mean what you were explained it meant, it would say 'higher power' on their website, but it does not, it say 'god' that's very specific to religion.

 

Sure, many people choose to use religion and their God as their "higher power", but it is no way the rule.

 

I quote step 2:

"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

Quote of step 11:

"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."

 

To pass AA you have to go through all 12 steps with no exceptions, sounds like a rule to me. I can't speak for all AA meetings or all NA meetings or any of their other affiliate anonymous groups, all I can say is that they believe their group is of religious design, and god is on their official website as their view of choice. If the people who represent them in cities across the world do not express their views the way they (designers of the group) intended that's fine, but it does not change its original or current mandate, which is to have it's members give their lives to god, as it says on their official website.

[Bob423 52]

...is this really that serious? its just minecraft...

[Jon Bon 43]

...is this really that serious? its just minecraft...

I believe we have diverted on the original topic, which is my fault by linking 'compelling behavior' to 'addictive behavior' which are separate, but often considered the same. Which is why I originally said anyone had the power to fix themselves, and compared it to drug addiction as I have experience with both real addiction and compelling habits.

Foxkit said it best when he said.

The reason for this is that in order for something to be considered addictive medically, something must be changed physically and drastically in the brain as a result of it. Sure, video games do change something, but it would be the same as you or me eating a sandwich, getting a date, or getting a promotion(not quite the same, but for simplicities sake). Those activities are simply compelling, so therefore, people struggling with game addiction aren't addicted, they are just struggling with a compelling medium.

 

In any case, the conversation is what it is, but what it is not (at least between me and ForeverZero) is about minecraft. I apologize for causing the digression of this topic.

[ForeverZer0 44]

Lol, okay you win, it's all about God.

You seriously got some issues with it. I have already wasted enough time with this pointless discussion.

 

To anyone else: If you would truly like to know what its about, perhaps asking a member of such an organization.

I have not personally read the AA book, only the NA one, which explains the distinctions much more clearly than I will bore you with here. As I already said, there are no shortage of atheist who work 12 step programs. According to Jon, that is not possible, so maybe it would be wiser to ask one of them how it is done instead of relying on one boy's obviously biased opinion.

 

I'm done with this topic. Its a waste time that could be better spent doing something else, like forcing religion on a vulnerable crackheads or something. Good day, all.

[Jon Bon 43]

Lol, okay you win, it's all about God.

You seriously got some issues with it. I have already wasted enough time with this pointless discussion.

 

To anyone else: If you would truly like to know what its about, perhaps asking a member of such an organization.

I have not personally read the AA book, only the NA one, which explains the distinctions much more clearly than I will bore you with here. As I already said, there are no shortage of atheist who work 12 step programs. According to Jon, that is not possible, so maybe it would be wiser to ask one of them how it is done instead of relying on one boy's obviously biased opinion.

 

I'm done with this topic. Its a waste time that could be better spent doing something else, like forcing religion on a vulnerable crackheads or something. Good day, all.

 

I can't speak for all NA or AA, nor can I confirm the affiliation with AA by any support group, but I can read their official website and speak from my experiences. No need to ask a member because AA posts what they want us to read on their official website, it says god, not higher power. I would tell anyone to try AA if they believe they need help and AA can offer it (I already stated it works, just no better then any other method as stated by their own internal and only available analysis, how is that biased?). I am not advocating against AA, I am advocating against it being the only choice (like SOS, or self methods like I employed), and informing that it is in fact a religious movement by their standards not mine (from AA.org their official website). Which is fine that they are, it's not automatically a good or bad thing, it's just a fact plain and simple (one they don't advertise), and I have never stated otherwise. Out of the two of us you are the only one who has stated bad relations to religion, even if sarcastically or hypothetically. I have never said anything bad about religion during this discussion or meant to imply others words, and I am making that clear now.

 

Now you call me 'boy' in an effort to discredit me, I'm 28 this past May. Sure I'm young, but 'boy'? Maybe 'young man', in any case I actually take that as a compliment. I haven't been a 'boy' since I was 16 and moved out on my own and became an autodidact. What age should I be for my experiences to be valid? I have read the AA book (post addiction), and I have attended their meetings (the ones I was forced to during my addiction), and I am speaking from personal experience plus citing their official literature with examples. My experiences are just as valid as yours. I recognize yours as valid but you refuse to recognize my personal experiences combined with AA's own words as a factual representation of their organization.

 

There for it is you who is biased in your judgment and thoughts on the matter, regardless of your age. I would expect as much of a closed minded individual to leave the discussion after I have discounted all their counter points, but derogatory name calling I did not. I am glad you found the help you needed through whatever means. Good day, and good health.

[ForeverZer0 44]

Yes, indeed you are triumphant, you utterly crushed every point I made. Wow, I have never been so utterly defeated in a "debate". You do realize that I made no point to debate? I never denied what was on an the AA site. I merely said you are taking it a bit out of context. Seriously, what the hell is getting into you? You have always seemed like one of the most level-headed people here, but you are taking this topic extremely personal.

 

I reiterate, I do not care what your perceptions are. I do not care what website links you may post. Surely by now in your life you know that anybody can post links that support their point of view by now, the subject doesn't matter. I could waste time copy-pasting links that clearly explain what "higher power" is meant to mean, straight out of the NA handbook, but what is the point? Is it gonna change your mind? No. Do I care enough to change your mind? No. If you really were in the pursuit of facts, you could find it yourself. Instead you merely search for quotes that support your own claim. Your aim in to "win" an argument, not to listen to what someone else has to say. You keep spewing AA website quotes out like I care. I don't know how many different ways to tell you my experience comes from NA, which while based on the same program, is much different. Did you look into that? No. Why, when the AA site had all the "good" quotes that back up your non-point.

 

I don't even attend NA anymore, and have not for nearly a year and half. I only ever did 4 of the 12 steps. I don't go to church and I am not religious. I believe in a god, but I do not worship one. I have nothing to try and prove, nor to stand up and try to defend the honor of anything. I just know from PERSONAL and FACTUAL experience of going to hundreds upon hundreds of these meeting in my life that religion is not part of it. No links you may post, no 25 year-old study, no YouTube video that you may direct me to changes that. Never was religion pressed onto me, I even started with the same beliefs that it was "God" driven that you do. Reading the some topic points sure does make it sound as such, but I assure you, that is not the case. If you truly want to know, put your Google Degree to work and find out yourself, you have shown you know how to type into a search box. I doubt you will.

 

BTW, I meant no insult with "boy", it was merely a figure of speech, but its nice to see you changed your pic to demonstrate your "manliness" though. ;)

 

And with that, you are welcome to have the last condescending word. Its all yours. Good day, and good health.

[Jon Bon 43]

No links you may post, no 25 year-old study, no YouTube video that you may direct me to changes that.

Well you don't believe me, their official website, the showtime show that is now posted on youtube, their official study. You must not believe anything by those standards. Why even post here and share your experiences if you won't believe others? That is biased. You mention the age of the study, and the website 'youtube' does this imply there are alternatives you would believe? "no links I post", so you believe nothing on the internet then? Or nothing I link to? (seems biased either way) What medium do you believe?

 

Never was religion pressed onto me

 

It was to me, and forced by my government, two wrongs. I was told while in the program that I wasn't participating to my fullest and wouldn't succeed if I didn't join the local church the rest of the AA attendees had joined. I research and looked into and found out that It's their goal which is on their website as god not higher power which they chose the words on it I don't see how whether it's a pamphlet or their website how it's less valid (also considering they both said god in my case). I suppose I should go to the public library, or go to my local AA meeting and grab their literature to prove my experiences as real. I can't speak for NA, but for AA I can, you originally disagreed with my statement towards AA. So I feel obligated to allow the truth to be told not only as I see it based on my experiences but as AA sees it upon themselves.

 

BTW, I meant no insult with "boy", it was merely a figure of speech, but its nice to see you changed your pic to demonstrate your "manliness" though.

Boy is a derogatory term with bad roots as a moniker for a human through historical documentation in multiple time periods, including this one. I would link you to oxford dictionary for it's definition, but I suppose you wouldn't believe it, I guess words don't have real definitions with root origins and can mean whatever we choose. You are of course free to use whatever words you choose, but they may and often do have certain stigma attached to them. I understand you may not have meant it as such, but that does not change its meaning or the history of it's use in the context you used it in. I apologize for saying you were attempting to attack my credibility.

I thought it appropriate, as although I liked the picture it was over 3 years old. And that is what I look like now, where as my old picture is what I looked like then.

And with that, you are welcome to have the last condescending word. Its all yours. Good day, and good health.

 

I'll take the last word, but I by no means am not welcoming you to reply. We obviously disagree on what their belief system is. My literature has never said higher power, and they never spoke of it, only god. I believe I haven't been condescending at all, you appear to not believe my personal experience of forced religion through AA, but I believe your experiences of not being forced (as I have agreed your experience happens, but is not the only experience one can have with AA which you have not agreed to). Seems since I believe you but you won't believe anything I say, it would appear you are being condescending to me. You say my personal experience has clouded my judgement, but you have personal experience too, why are you immune to that statement but I am not? Why is your judgement not clouded but mine is?

Thank you for calling me level headed, that should weigh something here. I already agreed not all AA is religious, said my experience was and found out they intended it that way, and showed their literature to prove it. I don't like anything forced upon me especially beliefs, and since that was my experience of AA as well as their chosen public image, I wish to advocate awareness and free choice. I am not sure what else to say.

 

Oh well.

[Bigace360 38]

Uh if ya'll are going to continue that conversation shouldn't it be smarter to create a new thread. This one got derailed big time. Just saying, the conversation was about spending to much time on mmo's(or just minecraft in general). What the hell.

Edited June 20, 2012 by bigace

[Jon Bon 43]

Uh if ya'll are going to continue that conversation shouldn't it be smarter to create a new thread. This one got derailed big time. Just saying, the conversation was about spending to much time on mmo's(or just minecraft in general). What the hell.

I was called out as not stating fact when relating substance addiction to compelling addiction. I defended myself, and have been since.

Also addiction is not a matter of willpower, ask an AA or NA member that overcame it. The belief that willpower alone defeats addiction is one of the greatest obstacles for people trying to quit to overcome. If you simply have the willpower to quit something, then you're not really addicted. Everyone makes the argument that "weak-minded" get addicted, failing to see the contradiction created if that person stops. If they stop, they wound have been strong of mind, but then how did they addicted in the first place if that's the case?

I do not wish for my words to be misconstrued, and I am done the substance discussion as I have covered my facts nicely, provided I believe my words can not be taken out of context.

 

When talking about mmo's it most certainly is willpower, like cheeseburgers, or any other life choice. Use in moderation and you'll be fine.

[Ecowolfsteen 14]

I think a staff member should move this topic to Mature Debate and rename it to The Definition of Addiction.

[Bob423 52]

or close it. this is getting intense

[ForeverZer0 44]

We have finished our little debate, obviously, although splitting this topic might be wise. In the end, we each agree to disagree based on own respective opinions and experiences. I don't really consider it "intense", and I, as I am sure he, harbor no ill feelings.

[Jon Bon 43]

We have finished our little debate, obviously, although splitting this topic might be wise.

Agreed. There is likely nothing either of us could say that we haven't already. Drawing attention to it is unneeded since our conversation is over. This topic bleeds into our discussion, since it's over and really no harm came of it, I don't see why it would be removed unless the original poster requests such. The conversation dealt with addiction and the original post was about addiction as said by the original poster.

In the end, we each agree to disagree based on own respective opinions and experiences. I don't really consider it "intense", and I, as I am sure he, harbor no ill feelings.

Exactly I couldn't put it better. Some may not be used to mature discussion but agree to disagree is totally an option. I agree, I also didn't consider it intense, but to people on the outside never hearing of either of our sides of the story I could see it appearing to be intense. Considering the two people involved don't consider it as such it likely isn't as tense as it may have appeared. I definitely harbor no ill feelings, that would be silly (and why he was sure I didn't feel that way), as I expected you to not harbor any as well.

Let me make it clear that I respect ForeverZer0 more now than I did before (which I did before as well), we have had a meeting of the minds, and I respect him for that even if we disagree.

Two people discussing different views shouldn't scare anyone. Yes this wasn't the mature debate section, and yes it was 'off-off topic' but that's where the conversation lead, and that's where it ended, nothing more nothing less.

If someone else wants to continue this conversation (without me) then fine start a new thread and request this be moved to it, otherwise there is no point unless the original poster wants it removed. Please no one try to make this into a bad situation because the two people involved don't see it as such.

[Bob423 52]

well the whole intense thing was kind of a joke, but i didnt read all of it anyway lol